Season 2 of HBO’s pirate comedy/romance Our Flag Means Demise takes some massive turns by episode 7 — perhaps not as massive because the season 1 flip, when inept pirate captain Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby) and Ed “Blackbeard” Educate (Taika Waititi) realized they’d romantic emotions for one another, however nonetheless… an entire lot of issues occur that we figured viewers would need to discuss, as soon as they’d seen it for themselves. So when Polygon sat down with creator and showrunner David Jenkins to speak about season 2, we cut up the dialog into two elements: an summary of the season’s largest concepts, and this spoiler-focused dialog about all of the surprises in episode 7, together with its explosive ending.
[Ed. note: Read on at your own risk; spoilers abound ahead.]
![Spanish Jackie (Leslie Jones, looking shocked) and Blackbeard (Taika Waititi, looking calm) sit at a table together in Jackie’s bar and stare at something offscreen in season 2, episode 7 of Our Flag Means Death](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0z3PQrpBycNRKTHzaUyR-9AbYuw=/0x0:1920x1050/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:1920x1050):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25016290/leslie_jones_taika_waititi.jpg)
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
To recap: In episode 7 of Our Flag Means Demise season 2, Stede and Blackbeard have simply had intercourse for the primary time, they usually appear all set for his or her happily-ever-after collectively — till Blackbeard abruptly leaves Stede to pursue a job as a fisherman. The crew visits the Republic of Pirates, the place Oluwande (Samson Kayo) expresses emotions for Zhang Yi Sao (Ruibo Qian), despite the fact that he was beforehand uncomfortable together with her expressing emotions for him when she took over his ship, and despite the fact that he and his good friend Jim (Vico Ortiz) had a romantic liaison in season 1. Additionally they be taught that The Swede (Nat Faxon) has fortunately settled in as one among 20 husbands to Spanish Jackie (Leslie Jones), despite the fact that he was compelled into that relationship to avoid wasting the remainder of the crew.
Sure, that abstract does sound like one thing out of a cleaning soap opera, now that you just point out it. However this doesn’t: On the finish of the episode, a entice set by Prince Ricky (Erroll Shand) obliterates Zhang’s fleet, and the pirates’ haven is destroyed when the English fleet sweeps in to kill or seize the entire forged. Jenkins talks us by means of all of it beneath.
This dialog has been edited for concision and readability.
Polygon: One factor that actually stunned me in season 2 is that you’ve got two totally different coercive relationships the place a person is being uncomfortably compelled into an intimate relationship with a lady, after which he later decides he likes it. What sort of conversations went into these relationships and the gender tropes you’re reversing there?
David Jenkins: With The Swede and Spanish Jackie — she owns [her husbands]. They stay in her basement, and he or she owns them, mainly. So already, you’re [ick noise]. However then I really like that The Swede actually likes her. She’s a gangster, she’s a mob boss. There’s a gender facet to having her in that position. However then he says, “I’ve discovered elements of myself that I by no means knew existed, and different elements I assumed have been lengthy gone.”
I simply preferred the concept of Leslie [Jones]’s character and Nat Faxon’s character being collectively and joyful, balancing one another. She’s already bought a wild factor going — she’s bought 20 husbands. To me, to see that relationship begin as sort of a joke, Oh, Leslie’s character’s scary and his character’s timid, and it turns into No, really, they steadiness one another fairly nicely — that’s sort of candy. It’s much less about the truth that she primarily owns him, it’s about the truth that they do care about one another. It’s sort of good.
![The Swede (Nat Faxon, in a belly-revealing cutoff shirt and tight black leather pants) grins hugely as he bartends at Spanish Jackie’s in episode 7 of season 2 of Our Flag Means Death](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-2eoctvAD056bwIUsdXYC8GGWLw=/0x0:1920x1167/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:1920x1167):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25016343/nat_faxon.jpg)
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
However you could have very a lot the identical dynamic with Zhang and Olu. After they begin out, she’s bought all the facility within the relationship, and he or she’s sort of predatory about claiming Olu. He’s intimidated and compelled into it, and he comes round on deciding he likes her. It simply looks like an odd beat to repeat.
Nicely, she has all the facility within the relationship till she doesn’t. After which she realizes that she’s in love with this man — he’s delicate and sort and candy. And that’s highly effective. I believe they’re mirrored in Blackbeard and Stede’s relationship — they’re every one another’s manic pixie dream lady.
I believe there’s something within the present about how piracy is a brutal lifestyle. It’s primarily Mad Max, this world. There’s no legislation, there’s simply sturdy and weak. And in tales like Recreation of Thrones, we see how that performs out. It’s lots of ladies getting raped in tales and also you’re like, [resigned ick noise]. In Our Flag, lots of these relationships aren’t consenting relationships — they’re power-dynamic relationships, as a result of it’s Mad Max. So a factor I prefer to see on this present is, Nicely, why is the extra highly effective particular person on this weaker particular person? What are they attempting to steadiness?
In a world the place may makes proper, and a few individuals simply must align themselves with somebody sturdy, it’s attention-grabbing to be like, Nicely, what does Blackbeard want? What does Spanish Jackie want? What does Zhang Yi Sao want, probably the most highly effective pirate on the planet? What occurs when she will get right into a relationship? What’s she searching for? She’s a contemporary particular person, what does she want? So that you’re at all times gonna get these bizarre energy dynamics to begin with, I believe, and you then simply attempt to get to: What’s beneath that? Why are they doing what they’re doing? What are they searching for?
![Jim (Vico Ortiz), Archie (Madeleine Sami), and Olu (Samson Kayo) all stand together outside in the Republic of Pirates, reacting with smiles or shock to something offscreen in season 2, episode 7 of Our Flag Means Death](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/HxAhddcYHrojlILadoquc0OoPZ8=/0x0:1920x1027/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:1920x1027):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25016347/vico_ortiz_madeleine_sami_samson_kayo_0.jpg)
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
Talking of what Blackbeard wants, I believe some followers will suppose that him leaving Stede in episode 7 is a type of revenge. It so carefully parallels what Stede did to him. You possibly can learn it as them being very a lot alike, operating from dedication, or as him attempting to harm Stede. What do you need to say to individuals freaking out after episode 7?
Nicely, there’s a factor I discuss loads — I actually, actually preferred the Bradley Cooper/Girl Gaga model of A Star Is Born. I like how the dynamic modifications between them. All the things we do is collapsed on this present — we discuss these lofty issues, however we don’t have the time to execute the whole lot we would love to do. Like, episode 4 is a mini Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, only a very small model of it.
On this case, we preferred the concept Blackbeard discovered this man and made him a official pirate, however now that he’s a star, Blackbeard’s questioning what he needs to do now that he’s misplaced his urge for food for piracy. And Stede’s changed into Girl Gaga’s character. He’s well-known now, as a result of he killed the scariest pirate, in order that energy is inverted. It’s attention-grabbing to take a look at how a relationship modifications now that Blackbird isn’t the star anymore and Stede isn’t a hanger-on. Stede bought what he wished; he’s an actual boy. Is Blackbeard jealous? Is he uncomfortable with it? When energy dynamics shift in a relationship, that results in hassle. After which it actually is rather like, What are they going to do? Are they going to make it by means of it? Can they rebalance? As a result of that could be a signal of a wholesome relationship.
That episode can be a giant turning level for Zhang and Olu, and for Olu and Jim. What went into the choices round them shifting in numerous instructions after their connection in season 1?
I believe that relationship was at all times seen within the room as a good friend relationship that bought romantic. That rigidity was attention-grabbing to us — it’s like, Nicely, what if we don’t play them as jealous? What if we play it as, if you love a good friend and it turns into romantic, and you then see somebody who makes them joyful and you realize you’re not it, you’re feeling jealous? But additionally, they’re your good friend. You need to see them joyful. I believe lots of occasions, notably in straight relationships, it’s traumatizing, and may very well be extra concerning the jealousy. However right here, I believe it’s good to see it this manner: They honestly care about one another sufficient to only need to see their good friend with somebody good, somebody who takes care of them. In my life, these are the perfect relationships [with exes]. I do see these amongst my associates, however I don’t see it dramatized loads, I simply see the adverse part dramatized. I prefer it this manner — they’re associates, they usually simply need to see one another do nicely.
![Prince Ricky (Erroll Shand) leans over a table at Spanish Jackie’s, talking earnestly to someone offscreen, in season 2, episode 1 of Our Flag Means Death](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ymUTFrJezRXbX2WzAr0ARomdmBo=/0x0:1920x1109/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:1920x1109):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25016365/erroll_shand.jpg)
Photograph: Nicola Dove/Max
This has by no means actually been a present about villains, however the finish of episode 7 looks like a shift in that regard.
I believe lots of the inner forces in Our Flag are the villains. It’s like, Are you able to let your self be beloved? Have you learnt what you need in love? If you realize what you need, are you wholesome sufficient to get it? Whenever you begin going into the tropes of [Blackbeard impression] Oh, ought to I be homosexual or not? or Oh, my associates did me soiled — we’ve seen that loads. It’s good dramatic gas, however I don’t suppose these are the issues that drive the present.
I believe the issues that drive this present are a bunch of people that care about one another and try to determine have relationships. And relationships are onerous. Normally, you’re your personal dangerous man or gal or particular person in a relationship. It’s not often [someone] doing one thing horrible to you — it’s you simply attempting to determine your personal shit. Hopefully, your folks assist.
The massive ending of episode 7 does counsel, although, that there is perhaps extra exterior stress coming to the forged, even when it’s only a short-term blip.
I believe this can be a story concerning the age of piracy coming to an finish. This lifestyle is coming to an finish. And each Western that’s good is that story: This lifestyle we made is coming to an finish, and it might’t final. […] I believe each story about outlaws is about attempting to protect a lifestyle in opposition to normative forces which can be sort of fascistic.
All of which is a giant historic second, so far as the historical past of piracy, and it’s a part of Stede and Blackbeard’s real-life story. Was that factor coming in from historical past, the best way you took little elements of Stede and Blackbeard’s relationship from historical past?
Utilizing historic beats are good, as a result of they offer the story some form — till they’re not helpful, and you then simply ignore them. Whenever you really feel such as you’d somewhat eat a sandwich, simply ignore the historical past. After which if you really feel like, OK, we’re in emotional soup right here, we want some downward stress, you then deliver historical past again in. The steadiness of the present is 90% ignoring historical past, after which 10%, deliver it in, at any time when we’re like, Ah, gotta transfer the story ahead! Keep in mind, the English are on the market, they usually’re actually dangerous!
The season 2 finale of Our Flag Means Demise airs on Max on Oct. 26.